Chris Munn:
Tim Ludwig:
Topics:
(00:00:00) – Intro
(00:01:15) – Chris’ upbringing
(00:04:14) – Golf
(00:13:16) – Experiences at an HBCU
(00:16:15) – Early career
(00:30:30) – Losing your father at 26
(00:37:41) – Taking life to 0 and starting over
(00:41:49) – The experience of buying a business
(00:49:50) – Buying a business vs. starting a business
(00:53:09) – What does legacy mean to you?
The content of this podcast does not constitute investment advice, an offer to provide investment advisory services, or an offer to sell or solicitation of an offer to buy an interest in any investment fund.
Transitions with Tim Ludwig is produced by Johnny Podcasts
Tim Ludwig: Tell me a little bit about childhood.
Chris Munn: Yeah, so I grew up in Detroit. I lived in Detroit for a couple of years and then we moved to Texas when I was really young. My dad’s job moved to Texas and then I came back to Detroit when I was probably six, five or six. I had a pretty good childhood. Like early memories, I went to the same school K through eight. So, I have a bunch of lifelong friends. There are a good number of friends that I went from kindergarten, probably four, that I went from kindergarten through college with.
Tim Ludwig: All the way through college?
Chris Munn: All the way through college, yeah. Because I went to a public school in Detroit, but it was a magnet school. So, you have to test in. And then the high school was a magnet school, too. So, my middle school, my K-8 was just kind of like a feeder school into that school. So, I went to school with a bunch of kids for 15, 13 years, whatever it is. I was the oldest. I have a younger sister who’s five years younger than me, which is a pretty big gap. So, we weren’t like super close. It was more like a big brother than like a friend.
Tim Ludwig: The same with my sister. She’s six years younger.
Chris Munn: Yeah. So, you get it. It’s like you were never really the same age, until now. My dad worked for General Motors, my mom worked for United Airlines, and we lived a pretty, now I that look back, it was probably lower middle class life, but we weren’t poor. We went on vacations every once in a while. Had a pretty happy childhood.
Tim Ludwig: What role did education play in your house?
Chris Munn: My dad is the oldest of nine. He was the first person in his family to go to college. And then my mom, she is one of six, but her generation was the first generation to go to college as well. So, like neither of my grandparents on either side finished high school. And so, I think my parents really valued education and thought it was super important. And so, my mom, I always had to read a book. There was no- if you’re done with that book, what book are you reading next? Like I said, I mentioned a little bit before, me and my dad watched Jeopardy all the time. That was like a little educational thing. When Alex died, when Alex Trebek died, it kind of felt like somebody in my family died. I felt like I knew him. I kind of grew up with him.
Tim Ludwig: You spent a half hour with him, multiple nights a week.
Chris Munn: Yeah, a half hour with him, five days a week. And then like I mentioned, I went to a magnet school, so it was like a gifted and talented school. So, it was everybody at the school drove that too. Like my high school is a Detroit public high school, but they had a hundred percent acceptance rate into college, which is very rare. But I knew probably when I was 14 or 15 that I wanted to get out of Detroit. I just sensed that there was more out in the world for me and education was kind of like my ticket out. It’s like, I know I can, if I get good grades, I can get a scholarship and get out of here and explore the world.
Tim Ludwig: Before we sort of jump to college, because I know that was a pretty transformational time for you, you were a golfer as a kid and not just like the casual golfer. You were really into it and pretty good.
Chris Munn: Yeah, I was a big golfer. So, my grandmother, my mother’s mom, lived with us for a while and helped take care of me and my sister. And she had a friend come from Hawaii. And he- this was like ’95, probably. Yeah, ’95. I was eight. He’s like talking to us. And he’s talking about how he loves golf, and he wants to go golf. So we go, or he goes, and I’m like, I want to go, and I watched him, and I was like fascinated with it. And so, we get back home, and he’s telling this story. He’s like, yeah, there’s this kid who’s like this awesome golfer. He’s like 16 or 17 and is going to be really good. It ended up being Tiger Woods he was talking about. He was right. Yeah, for sure, he was right. He turned out okay. So I started playing golf like maybe one year before Tiger Woods came onto the scene. And so, I liked it, but then when Tiger came, I was like, oh, I’m into it. This is- it just meant so much to me seeing him be successful. So, I played golf from eight to eight.
Tim Ludwig: Because he was a person of color as well, is that-?
Chris Munn: Yeah, because he was a person of color, which you never saw in golf. That was- You don’t always know what your limitations are when you’re a kid. I’m like, can I do that? Can I not do that? And so, seeing Tiger, especially dominate the way he did, it was like, oh, okay. This is not just a white sport, or it doesn’t have to be. So, I started playing golf, and I would do like junior tournaments and go all over the state. My dad would take me all over the state and through the Midwest. Like we went to Ohio and did tournaments and stuff.
Tim Ludwig: Your dad wasn’t a golfer?
Chris Munn: My dad was not a golfer. My dad did not play golf. He just played because I played. So, he would play with me, which I appreciate at this point. But I fell in love with it. I just fell in love with the discipline it requires, with the patience it requires, with the pursuit of perfection. It’s like professional golfers are never happy with their golf game. And it’s kind of like a tormented sport, but I just love the challenge of let me try to get better at something that I know I’ll never be better at I guess.
Tim Ludwig: You never reach perfection.
Chris Munn: Yeah. You never reach a point of satisfaction. And so, I think it’s helped me in life for sure, some of the stuff that I learned from golf and just like the lessons that you have to take from playing competitive golf.
Tim Ludwig: What’s one of those lessons you feel like that’s stuck with you?
Chris Munn: Well, in golf, okay, let’s say a professional golfer might hit the ball 70 times in a round, and one of those can be awful or two of those can be awful, like awful shots. And as you get worse, the percentage of awful shots goes up. But one of the things that you quickly have to learn is, when you hit a bad shot, the next shot needs to be a good shot. And the only way for the next shot to be a good shot is for you to not think about the last shot anymore. You have to forget it and you have to move on. And so I guess like this quick amnesia of that’s not who I am. That’s not my character. That’s not the player I am. And that is not what I’m used to. So let me just reset and refocus. And I know that if I reset and refocus, I’ll at least get back to my average, which is not that.
Tim Ludwig: Did you watch Ted Lasso?
Chris Munn: I’ve watched like the first six episodes.
Tim Ludwig: There’s a comment in there where he talks about the goldfish having a really short memory and be a goldfish.
Chris Munn: Exactly. That’s exactly it. It’s like, yeah, you have to be a goldfish and forget what happened, but you can’t lose your confidence. And so that’s the important part of forgetting. It’s almost like a statistical anomaly. It’s like we’ll just throw that out because it doesn’t fit in with the data set. The data set shows that I should be this kind of golfer, and that doesn’t fit. So, we have to throw that out and just remember that we are the data set and not this data point.
Tim Ludwig: I like that framing.
Chris Munn: So, I’ve taken that into life. And so, if I have a bad day or something, that’s not the data set. That’s just a data point.
Tim Ludwig: Yeah. Getting accolades and recognized for golf, was that something that was going to play into your college decision?
Chris Munn: Yeah, so when I was like 14 or 15, I kind of- you start thinking about college and whether or not you- well, I knew I was going to go to college, but it’s a matter of what I wanted to do in college and if I wanted to play golf in college. And so, I think when I was 16, I want to say, I went to my dad who had like taken me to do all this golf stuff, which was- and told him that I didn’t want to play college golf or I didn’t want to play competitive golf anymore.
Tim Ludwig: Even in high school?
Chris Munn: Yeah, like after my junior year of high school. And so, one, I was nervous to say that because he had taken me to all this. Yeah, he made a big investment in me. But he was just kind of like, okay, that’s fine. And that was a big relief to me. But I love golf. Like I love golf, I still love golf. Like if you talk to any of my friends, you talk to my wife especially, she’s going to say I love golf more than I love her. So that’s what she believes. I love everything about it. I can watch high school kids play golf. I can watch YouTubers play golf. I can watch any kind of golf. But I didn’t want to make it a job and I knew what college golf looked like. And my dad got a scholarship to play college football, which he quickly decided he wasn’t going to do because it was going to be a real commitment, one that he didn’t want to make. And so, I think that…
Tim Ludwig: Because he wanted to focus on the education.
Chris Munn: He wanted to focus on his education, so he thought that football would get in the way of that. I think that helped him say like, okay, I’m totally fine with you not doing that. But it also made me realize that you can just do things for seasons. Like he was okay with just- and thinking back, I’m like, he took me to all this stuff, but it was just because I liked it and I had an interest in it. He was letting me explore that interest and not, oh, we’re doing this so you can do something later, which I appreciate now. Sometimes, you just want to make a Lego set because you want to make a Lego set. It’s not, I don’t want to make a hobby of this. I don’t want to make a job out of this. It’s just what I want to do right now.
Tim Ludwig: There’s something really pure and uncomplicated about that kind of love. You’re just doing it because the person you care about is into it. There’s no other motive beyond that.
Chris Munn: Yeah, and that’s awesome. And, yeah, I see that now in my relationship and how it matters when you show up for people for what they want to do. So, yeah, I decided I didn’t want to play, which was a big deal, but I got an academic scholarship to college.
Tim Ludwig: Can I just pause there for a second? So, I think a lot of people, when they have the kind of skill that you had and rise to the level of recognition that you had in golf, it becomes a large part of their identity. And it would be hard, I think for a lot of people, I think if I were in that situation, it would be hard to just sort of put that aside and like, who is Chris now? Do you remember going through any of that?
Chris Munn: I don’t really remember going through that. Personally, I don’t think I get too tied to things that I do, like my identity. Like even to this day, I don’t- if I couldn’t do entrepreneurship anymore, I wouldn’t feel ruined. I think identity is like a lot deeper than that. And so, I didn’t really feel- I mean, it was certainly a big decision. And I certainly miss competitive, like playing competitive golf. Like I do, I still miss that. But I didn’t feel like part of me was lost. And part of that is I was so young that, you’re 16 or 17, and you’re not really a fully formed human yet. So, there’s a lot of other interests you may have and other things like step in and fill that void. So, I think going to college was a big, just that whole experience filled that void quickly for me.
Tim Ludwig: Did it make you nervous that maybe that would inhibit your ability to get into the colleges that you were aiming for?
Chris Munn: No. I mean, I knew I had good grades in school, so I knew I was going to be able to get into college and I thought the colleges that I wanted to go to, I thought I could get in. So, it wasn’t inhibiting for me. I felt confident. And maybe that’s part of it, too. I felt like I had another path.
Tim Ludwig: You weren’t just solely relying on golf.
Chris Munn: For sure.
Tim Ludwig: So, then you applied to college, and where’d you end up going?
Chris Munn: Yeah, so I went to Howard in D.C., HBCU. In 2006, I left Detroit, which was like right before the auto industry and-
Tim Ludwig: The Great Financial Crisis.
Chris Munn: Yeah, the Great Financial Crisis. And so, my decision to go to Howard, one, I wanted to go to school in a city. That was my main thing. I said, I want to go to school in the city. I want to go in a big city, bigger than Detroit. So honestly, that’s kind of limiting. At the time, there were only like seven or eight cities that were bigger than Detroit, but I just knew I wanted more. I wanted to see more and do more. So, I applied to school in Chicago, in New York, and DC. And so, I had a couple family friends that had gone to Howard and had mentioned it and I went on a tour, I had an aunt that lived in DC. And going to Howard absolutely changed my life, changed my perspective. I met my wife there. And Howard gave me confidence to go out into the world that I don’t think I would have had otherwise. I was like 22 and I was ready. I’m like, I feel confident. I feel not entitled, but I felt that I had something to offer the world. And Howard really, really gives you that confidence between like the community that you have there and then the legacy of the people that have gone before you and gone out into the world and done amazing things, like you feel some responsibility and some privilege and almost like an honor. It’s like, oh, I can carry the Howard legacy on. And so, I mean, I loved my experience there between the diversity of the people that I went to school with. Even though it was just an all-Black school, it was extremely diverse economically and culturally. And I have some true, true lifelong friends from my college experience that are probably my best friends to this day. So yeah, I would never- that’s one decision I’d never change.
Tim Ludwig: That sounds like a really pivotal time.
Chris Munn: Yeah. And you’re so young. You’re impressionable. And I love the thought diversity there. You have people who- I’m in Detroit. Everybody’s a Democrat in Detroit. Then I go to Howard and there’s like the Black Republicans Club. And I’m like, I didn’t know there were Black Republicans. I didn’t know you could be. And so, you go and listen to what they have to say. And one of the beauties of college is you get exposed to all these ideas at an age where you’re impressionable enough to still take them in. But you’re old enough and around enough people that all the ideas come from a pretty thoughtful place. And so that exploration of that was awesome. Just within the Black community at Howard, I got exposed to a ton of diverse thoughts and ideas, and I had a different worldview for sure when I left than when I started.
Tim Ludwig: And as you were getting close to the end of college and thinking about careers, how did that take shape in your mind? What were your things you were interested in and how did you ultimately make a decision?
Chris Munn: Yeah, so I really had no idea what I was doing. I just went to school. I just went to school, and I had no real- like my mom and my dad both worked in corporate careers, but I was kind of interested in finance, but I didn’t know what that really meant or what that looked like.
Tim Ludwig: What did you major in?
Chris Munn: Finance. So, I was marketing when I got to school, but I changed it to finance quickly. And so, one of the great parts about Howard is all the big banks and stuff come to recruit there, and they have these things called info sessions. And so an info session is just five o’clock, they’re coming, somebody sends somebody down from New York to talk to kids.
Tim Ludwig: Serve some pastries.
Chris Munn: Yeah. And so literally I was going for the- I was hungry, I was walking past somewhere, and they had food and some lady was like come in. We’re doing an info session. And so, I went and talked to some people for a long time. It was with UBS, the Swiss bank. And that is how I got my first- I got an internship at UBS, like through that, like true serendipity, just being in the building.
Tim Ludwig: In New York?
Chris Munn: In New York. Yeah. And so that’s kind of where I started. And it was like I didn’t love the work, but it paid well. And I always had like some entrepreneurial ambitions. So just my calculus at the time, I was 21 or whatever, 20, wasn’t that smart, but it was just like just make as much money as you can and then you’ll have some options. Which is kind of true. And literally that’s how I- Yeah, that’s how I chose. It was literally that’s who gave me an opportunity. I took it. And when I graduated from school, I moved to New York.
Tim Ludwig: You mentioned you had some entrepreneurial ambitions. When did you start to feel those, and where do you think that came from?
Chris Munn: I’m not sure where that came from. Like always in school, I always sold stuff. So, I would sell chips or I would sell candy. And then, I got a real lucrative business in high school.
Tim Ludwig: What was that?
Chris Munn: So, I used to work at Whole Foods, which in 2004, I was making like $14 an hour, which was like insane. I’m like, I’m rich. But every night at Whole Foods, they throw out their fresh cut fruit, and we could buy it for a quarter. And so, I would just buy like 20 things of fruit, and they’re like the $10 things. I’d go to school and I’d sell them for like five bucks. So, I’m getting like $50 a day, five days a week in school along with my job. So, I was like, oh, this is awesome. This is when I was buying all the shoes.
Tim Ludwig: And that pays for a lot of greens fees too.
Chris Munn: Yeah. It pays for greens fees. It pays for shoes. And it helped me get a car. And so, I think there’s probably some conditioning there for sure of like, oh, you get money, you have some freedom, you can do what you want, you can buy what you want, especially at that age.
Tim Ludwig: You can buy something cheap and sell it for more.
Chris Munn: Yep. You can buy something cheap and sell it for more. And I understood, like, oh, I got a low cost of goods and a high margin business. And I had to buy- I worked with somebody else that I went to school with. So, I always had to get in there first so that there’s no competitors. So, I had a monopoly at school on the fresh fruit. But yeah, so I learned all this stuff about business and that really made me- I was just super excited about that. I was like, I’m making money, I could buy what I want to buy. At that time, you don’t have any bills, it’s just nonsense. But I mean, that’s part of what money is, to spend it on what you want. If you just have to spend it on necessities, then it’s not as fun to go to work, in my opinion. And so that there was kind of a springboard. I didn’t do any of that in college, but in high school, I just always remember, like I was the richest kid at school, like not my parents, but between the job and then the side hustle, I was like, I had a lot of money in school. And now that I think about it, I spent it all, which is another story, but lesson learned. I think that was a big inspiration for me of learning what a business is. And then, we sell all our fruit one day at Whole Foods and so I don’t have any the next day for the kids. And then they’re like, what’s going on? I got angry customers and supply chain issues. It’s pretty cool. So yeah, it was a good lesson. And my parents encouraged me. They were just like, yeah, if you want to do that, and it helps pay for stuff, if you want to buy a car, go ahead. If you want to spend it, yeah, it’s your money. And so that just gave me a level of freedom that I had never had. So I loved it.
Tim Ludwig: You were far more entrepreneurial than I was.
Chris Munn: Yeah. I don’t know. I just love the freedom I have with my own cash.
Tim Ludwig: Yeah. So, you go to UBS. How long were you there?
Chris Munn: So, I only interned at UBS. Yeah, so I interned there that summer. And then the next summer I worked at Hess on their trading desk, so like the oil company. And so that was a very, very different experience for me because like I’ve mentioned, I grew up in Detroit and I went to Howard. And so honestly, going to work was the first time I was really ever around any other races. So, I mean, I played golf. So, to be fair, I did play golf. And so that was for sure. But like you golf, you just talk to the guys for a couple hours. You go. And so just like understanding different people’s backgrounds and what they’re into. And I’m like around people who I don’t know what- like they’re mentioning artists that I don’t know who they are, music artists, I don’t know who they are, or some childhood thing. I’m like, I’ve never heard of that or they’re using expressions I’ve never heard.
Tim Ludwig: There’s a cultural gap.
Chris Munn: Yeah, there’s a cultural gap. And I’m like, dude, should I know- You feel nervous about asking because it’s like, should I know this? Am I incompetent, or is this just like some cultural thing that they have? So, it was a very interesting time for me. And I quickly found out that I wasn’t a great employee. I’m very curious. I question everything. And when you’re 22 and in a new job, that’s not your job, to question stuff. It’s just like this is the way we do it and do it this way. And I just never- that just doesn’t sit well with me. So, I certainly had some, in a corporate career, I certainly had some struggles with that aspect of my life because back to the high school, I was like, oh, this is freedom. In college you have freedom. And then I felt constrained again. And I was like, it doesn’t feel like I make enough money for them to constrain me like this. It was kind of- the trade-off didn’t feel worth it. So, I knew, then I was like, I got to figure a way to get out of this for sure. So, I didn’t stay in corporate that long really.
Tim Ludwig: And after you graduated, you did work in a corporate role in New York?
Chris Munn: Yeah, in New York. I worked in New York for five years in two different, I worked at Hess and then I worked at a hedge fund for five years or so. Yeah, five years. So, I did the New York thing, which was also a good lesson. In New York, you can make a lot of money and not have a lot of money. And so that was also a, like all my cogs are too high. And so that was a lesson on cost of living, which I never really, I grew up in Detroit where everything was cheap. And so, the five years that I spent in New York were, it was kind of a tough time, really. It was not- I didn’t enjoy what I did. I always felt like it was a means to an end. And I tried to do well in my roles. But when you go home every day, and you’re like, this doesn’t-
Tim Ludwig: It doesn’t feel like your life’s work.
Chris Munn: Yeah, it didn’t fill me. And so, some people are like, look, work is just a means to pay your bills. And I was just like, no, I need something more. I was selling fruit and doing better than this. So, I’m like, this can’t be it. So, I wanted to have that same freedom that I had when I was in high school. So, I think I was always kind of searching for that still.
Tim Ludwig: So, what did you do?
Chris Munn: So, the last role, I took a role in Atlanta doing corporate M&A, where we were buying up small businesses, like $5 to $10 million EBITDA businesses. And that’s when I kind of learned about what buying small businesses were and all this stuff. So we were like a billion, our company was like a billion in revenue or more. And so, these guys were flying in on a private jet doing like 25 million in revenue and like 5 million in EBITDA. And I’m meeting with these people, and I’m like, oh no, no, I’m in the wrong job. These guys are- this is business to me. Like they’re over here doing deals and I’m coming in and like changing the coffee machine. It just felt like-
Tim Ludwig: They own the company and reap the rewards.
Chris Munn: They own the company and reap the rewards. And I got a good look at taking risk and what that meant, the upside of having that risk. And then, also the downside, some guys’ businesses weren’t doing great and they had to deal with that. So that part was- That just ignited something in me. I was like, oh wow, this is- this guy, I’m like five million in EBITDA. I’m like, he gets to take that home and just-
Tim Ludwig: The dots started to connect.
Chris Munn: Yeah, now it’s connecting. I’m like, okay, this is- you have to have some kind of ownership. And if you don’t have the ownership, then you’re an employee, which is fine. It’s fine to be an employee, but there are different risk reward profiles for each. And so, I was willing to take the risk for the reward. So when I was at that job, I really said, okay, I have to- I see the playbook now. Like I knew the theoretical before at the other jobs. I was like, I know the feeling and I don’t want to have this feeling. But that was the first time I saw like, oh, here’s a path for me to own something. And so, I wasn’t oil and gas. I wasn’t super excited about that space. But I learned in that job, I learned what doing due diligence was. I sat in the meetings. I learned modeling it out. I didn’t have the other side. I didn’t have across the wall. I didn’t have the ops, like once we bought something, it went away from me, so I had to learn that part. But I at least got to see what that looked like up close and personal, especially because of my background, like I never- the people on my block growing up were like mailmen or worked at the plant, so I didn’t know anybody that had like a real medium-sized business or anything like that.
Tim Ludwig: Not many people do.
Chris Munn: Yeah, not many people do, exactly. And so, like there was nobody in the family or anything. And so that really opened my eyes because that was the first time I saw it in real life. And I said, okay, this is real. I’m a hundred percent a person, I’m not a- I’m not really good at visualizing things, but if I see it, then I’m like, oh, I got it. And you only have to show me one time, and I’m going to go get it. But if I don’t see it, then it’s imaginary to me. And so, seeing things is very important to me and very important for my success and my drive.
Tim Ludwig: When you see something like that, you’re still young, call it mid-20s, don’t have a lot of experience, I’m guessing don’t have any capital really to think about going and buying a five million dollar EBITDA business. There’s still some barriers and some obstacles in front of you. Most people, I think, get discouraged at that point and say that’s not achievable. I can’t do that. That doesn’t sound like you had that happen to you.
Chris Munn: No. I mean, because I always say like if I see someone doing it, it’s doable, and I may not have- To not see someone do something is one thing. Growing up, I didn’t see anybody that had a business like that. So, then it’s hard to visualize if that’s even true or if that’s just something people talk about. I have no clue. But once I see it and then it’s real, okay, there may be 50 steps to this and I may only know eight, but I know the other 42 exist. I just don’t know them yet. Versus, I don’t know if this is a possibility. It’s like going to Mars or going to Pluto. I’m not the person to figure that out. But if you tell me, oh yeah, people went to Mars last week, and they went on this kind of spaceship. Now I’m like, okay, I can figure- I’m resourceful enough to figure out the rest. And so that part has been vital for me. It’s the resourcefulness that I’ve had.
Tim Ludwig: It’s not just resourcefulness though, it also seems like you could characterize it almost as an irrational level of confidence.
Chris Munn: Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. You have to. I mean, to do anything out of the ordinary, I think you have to have some of that. Your odds are low that you’ll succeed. Like if you’re just playing the odds, then you’ll almost never do anything because the odds are almost never in your favor to do anything extraordinary. That’s why it’s extraordinary.
Tim Ludwig: You get the status quo.
Chris Munn: You get the status quo. And so, I think all entrepreneurs have some kind of, I’m built for this. Maybe no one else is, but I am. And that may be because you had too much coffee or that could be your childhood. It could be anything. But I think all great entrepreneurs have an irrational level of confidence in themselves. And so, yeah, I don’t need to- I don’t need all the answers to start working on a problem. I just need to know that the problem is solvable, and then I’m good to go. So, that was me in that job. I saw a path for me and then I’m like okay.
Tim Ludwig: But then there was an interruption.
Chris Munn: Yeah. So, when I was in that role, really the impetus for it was when I was in that role, the M&A role, my father passed. So, it was 2014. So, I was 26, which is young. Sometimes I hesitate to say that because I’m like I wasn’t 13, but it’s still young. I mentioned, I don’t really feel like I had an adult relationship with my dad, which is- so it’s still young. And so, my dad was a big inspiration, like I mentioned him at golf and he took me everywhere and we watched Jeopardy and we watched 60 Minutes. And so, he was very, very influential to me in my life. And he passed in 2014. And so, I had seen all this. I had seen what had happened to him at the end of his career. So, he worked at General Motors, and he got laid off maybe like two years before that date in the financial crisis, maybe three years before that. And they did restructuring and got rid of a bunch of senior people that make more money than the junior people and all that. So, I’d seen that happen. I was like, that’s kind of a- it just kind of felt shitty, to be honest. It’s like, he’s been there, he worked there since he graduated college. So, he had been there 30 something years.
Tim Ludwig: There’s no loyalty it felt like.
Chris Munn: Yeah, it didn’t feel like any loyalty. Which is fine, except for the part where they expect you to be- they expect loyalty in return for not giving you any. And so that’s part of my hesitation with corporate. It’s like, you guys are- they preach everything to make you seem like a family, but then, it’s not. You’re just a team. And if somebody’s not cutting it or somebody makes too much money, you’re off the team.
Chris Munn: That’s such a pet peeve of mine. I think when I was younger, this notion of having your work be like family really resonated with me. I wanted to connect with people at that level. The older I got and the more experience I got, I realized how unfair it was to characterize it, that it really is a team and not a family.
Chris Munn: Yes, you do things to- you would never fire your family. So, I don’t- yeah, you wouldn’t lay them off or-
Tim Ludwig: And if you had to, you’d do it in a very different way.
Chris Munn: In a very different way, correct. And so, you provide assistance to them once they’re laid off and all sorts of stuff. So yeah. And so really what stuck with me is when he passed, we later found out that when they went through the bankruptcy, General Motors, they canceled a bunch of life insurance policies for their employees. So, my dad, he had two life insurance policies, but one of them was just completely canceled. And so, I’m like, oh, that really doesn’t seem fair. That doesn’t seem right at all. Because when you do it, he’s 60 years old and you can’t- it’s much harder to get life insurance.
Tim Ludwig: Talk about kicking people when they’re down.
Chris Munn: Exactly. So, this all happens. My dad passes. We find out all this stuff with the life insurance and like my tone with corporate America, it was just like- it was already not great. But then it was like, I cannot do this. I owe it to my dad. I owe it to myself that I can’t do this. So, like I’ve seen the writing on the wall. I’ve seen the story play out with the guys coming in and selling their businesses to us. And so, when my dad passed, I was like, okay, I have to do it. I have to go do it. And I think to me, that’s probably the most pivotal moment in my life when I reflect on it because I had a corporate career, it was good. I had a good life. I was married. Everything was just going along fine. Like, I didn’t have to rock the boat.
Tim Ludwig: You were living the American dream.
Chris Munn: Yeah, exactly. I was. I was living the American dream. And then I’m like, I’m going to just blow this all up and go to zero. It’s like crazy. And my wife did it at the same time. So, we both did. And looking back now, I’m like, that was crazy. We had a good amount of stable income, and we just said, well, we’ll take it to zero. Let’s take it to zero. But I think sometimes it requires big shifts and big things happening in your life to make you have some perspective. And that’s one thing that I always think about when I think about my father is his work ethic and everything he did for me and then the way he was treated at the end. It’s like what he left me and him leaving me that is the reason that I have the life I have today. So, he wouldn’t have passed, I don’t know, I probably, may be still be working in corporate because I may always have the itch, but nothing lights the fire. And so that lit the fire like in a big way. And I was just like, no, I’m gone. I can’t do this. I can’t get treated how he got treated at the end. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. So I think he did the best he could with what he knew. Like I said, he was the first person to go to college. So, it’s just a good job for him and a good life. But then, he did that and he laid the foundation, so I should be able to do more than that.
Tim Ludwig: That’s quite a legacy he ended up leaving. And I think some people in a circumstance like that would choose to become embittered and soured and hateful potentially. And you did sort of the proverbial turning lemons into lemonade.
Chris Munn: Yeah. Well, it’s a fire. The fire could be hate. I don’t know. But like, yes.
Tim Ludwig: You don’t seem like a hateful person.
Chris Munn: No, no, I don’t. I don’t hate anybody, but I hate the way he was treated. And so, that part stuck with me. But yes, you have to turn your pain into something positive.
Tim Ludwig: Well, my point is, I don’t think you have to. I think you chose to.
Chris Munn: Yeah, I chose to. Right, yes. I have to. I have to turn my pain into something positive. And as I think back on it, that lesson of turning that, because I really didn’t experience pain as a kid. Like nothing ever really- I had a grandfather die, but that was kind of it when I was young. So, nothing really happened between like five and 25. No pain, just like fake pain, kid pain. And so, to experience that, that was the first time I experienced pain. And what do you do with it and how do you turn it around? I think that can define your life. And as I mentioned that, I was thinking about somebody like Nelson Mandela. Like that could have absolutely defined his life. That could have gone a very different way. But yeah, to me, it’s those pivotal points in your life, what lessons do you learn from them, what do you take from them, and then how does that fuel you either forward or backward. It’s a propellant, and it can push you either way.
Tim Ludwig: Life is going to happen either way, it’s how you respond.
Chris Munn: Yeah, it’s how you respond to it, so it’s 100% sure.
Tim Ludwig: So you said you took things to zero and you really took things to zero and did a full reboot. Where’d you guys go?
Chris Munn: So yeah, we said we were going to, okay, we’ll do the entrepreneur, but you know this, it’s a grind. And so, I knew it would be a grind from just all the reading I had done about entrepreneurs and their stories and all that stuff. And my wife was doing the same thing, starting her career over. So, we said, let’s take a year, a little over a year off. And we moved to France and we lived there for a year.
Tim Ludwig: Did either of you speak any French?
Chris Munn: No. I mean, no, other than croissant. No, we didn’t speak French, but we love France and Paris and we had visited and really liked it. And we both wanted to study abroad in school and we didn’t for probably money reasons. And it was just like when else will we have this opportunity to do this? And so, I was very happy that we did it. It gave me a lot of clarity. Not working gave me a ton of clarity on, okay, how do I want to design my life? What do I want it to look like? And now that we mentioned it, everything feels like it stems back from that selling the fruit story because it’s all about having the freedom to do what I want to do. Like that’s my everyday, I kind of just want to do what I want to do. I don’t want to feel like I’m forced into a routine or forced to do something or forced to do things for money. I just want to wake up and do what I want to do and just have enough money to do that. That doesn’t have to be a ton. So, I spent that year thinking about, okay, how can I go about this? What do I want to do? If I buy a business, what will it look like when I get back? All that kind of stuff. So, I don’t think I would have gotten that clarity if I didn’t take that time to kind of reset my life. And once again, it was kind of right after my father passed. So, it was just kind of a good time for me to take a break because, to be fair, especially at the hedge fund, I worked a ton. And so, I think I was a little burnt out from work too. And so having that, some people go back and get an MBA and that’s their time where they can reset. But for me, it was-
Tim Ludwig: Your option sounds pretty good.
Chris Munn: Yeah. It was better than sitting in class, that’s for sure.
Tim Ludwig: How did you know it was time to come home?
Chris Munn: The visa was up. Otherwise, I would have been fine. No, the visa was up. And we needed to make money eventually. Neither of our parents have money and we didn’t have a ton of money saved. So yeah, we had taken that year. We decided what we were going to do. She was going to do photography. I was going to buy a business. And that’s how we settled on LA. She wanted to do photography. I wanted to buy a business, which is kind of geographically agnostic. Her job was either going to be in New York or LA or her work would be in New York or LA. And we had lived in New York, as I mentioned.
Tim Ludwig: Can I just interrupt for a second? I love the fact that you both did this at the same time, went over there and both came back and pursued completely different paths that aligned with your deeper passions.
Chris Munn: I’m glad you love it because it’s been stressful at times for sure.
Tim Ludwig: Of course, it doesn’t have to be easy.
Chris Munn: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, it certainly hasn’t been easy, but we’ve had a lot of support for each other and that’s what’s been important. Because it’s been sometimes where she’s made money and I haven’t and sometimes where I’ve made money and she hasn’t. And we don’t have like a, you made this, I made this thing. It’s just like, yeah, you made a dollar, we made a dollar. And so that’s been really helpful. It’s like having a spouse who’s not just supportive but understanding because they’re going through the same thing you’re going through. So yeah, it was a, I mean, 26 or let’s call it, yeah, 26 and then 30, my life was like completely different. It was just a completely different change, but exciting.
Tim Ludwig: So when you came back to LA, how long did it take for Fairfield to crystallize, for you to find business to buy?
Chris Munn: Yeah, we got to LA in 2019, in the summer of 2019, and I kind of started my search then. I started it like a month before because I knew I was coming back. I’m like, I need to start a search. And so, I went through all the regular channels of email owners and brokers, tell them I’m looking. And I used my M&A background. I juiced it, of course, because the brokers need to take you seriously. So, it’s like, oh, I bought this and this. I think that certainly helped. And I’d say by November, I found a business that I thought I would want to buy. And by February, it was done. It was a done deal. So, it wasn’t a long search. And I knew it wasn’t the perfect business to buy.
Tim Ludwig: There’s no such thing.
Chris Munn: But there’s no such thing. And I think a lot of searchers can get- You don’t want to buy a bad business, but sometimes you have to buy something to kind of like just get you on the playing field. And if you want to set the all time scoring record, you’ve got to be in the game. And so that for me was kind of my thought on it. It’s like, no, it’s got some hair on it a little bit. But I have to figure it out because otherwise, I could spend three years searching and I don’t want to do that. And so, it’s been a ride.
Tim Ludwig: Let’s maybe use that as a chance to pivot to talking about some of the pivotal moments in the journey as a business owner.
Chris Munn: Yeah. There’s a lot of ways we can go here, but first to start, I would say just buying the business wasn’t easy. I felt like I got a ton of skepticism from the first bank that I used. And now that I know more, I think I’m like kind of validated in that perception. And so, they made it really, really difficult to close the deal. And so that was frustrating because when you’re doing something the first time, criticism, you don’t know if criticism is valid and if you should internalize it or if somebody is just not good at their job because you don’t have the experience to give you the certainty. And so, going back to my background of not knowing anybody that did this, I didn’t have any mentors that did it. I’m doing it for the first time. And so, I’m like, oh, are these banks right? Or I don’t know. So, it gives you a lot of trepidation and a lot of- it makes you lose your confidence, really, into what you’re doing. So that was really hard to keep pushing through that because every day, you see on Twitter, somebody’s like, oh, they don’t talk about the hard parts. And I’m like, am I ignoring that right now? Or I don’t know. You don’t have a good inner voice when you don’t have experience. And so that part was, I just kind of felt wayward during that period. So that was really hard. Then we closed like the end of February 2020.
Tim Ludwig: Uh-oh, I know what’s coming after that.
Chris Munn: Yeah, I’m like elated, went and got a steak dinner, celebrating, no mask. Didn’t even know what a mask was. And then 15 days later, COVID hit. And so the first business I bought was pretty small. Like I mentioned, we were probably doing a hundred thousand a month in revenue. It was just over a million dollar business. It wasn’t that big. But by May, we were doing like 13,000 in revenue. And so, yeah, it’s like, oh, well, this is death.
Tim Ludwig: It’ll be a short entrepreneurial career.
Chris Munn: Yeah, I was like, oh, grand opening, grand closing. That was quick. It was like a one show only Broadway thing. So, I was like, oh, well, I guess I’m going back to work. But things worked out. And part of that is, I think, persistence of I’m like, this has to work. I want this to work. Part of that is luck. You have to acknowledge the luck just as you do the unluck. And buying right before COVID was super unlucky. But getting through it, part of that was absolutely luck and things that fell in our favor. And so, in business, I feel like there’s always something. There’s either issues trying to find businesses to buy, issues operating the businesses. Businesses are really just kind of a mess. And they’re very fragile. And to keep them going and operating is not easy. I think businesses are like 85 year old men. It’s just like the bones are there, but this thing can go any second. And if it goes, we wouldn’t really be surprised because there’s a lot that can happen at that age. And so, having humility about just the fact that this thing is fragile and you have to treat it as such, but you also still have to push and make sure that it’s healthy and you’re doing the right things and you’re eating your vegetables and trying to grow still and all that. So business is just, it’s a fun game. I look at it like a game that I love playing.
Tim Ludwig: Is there a moment or a time since you’ve owned the business that feels like a big win or one of the positive transformational moments?
Chris Munn: We recently hired a salesperson who is awesome, and it showed me the benefit of bringing talent into an organization and what that can do. It has really upped our game on a lot of levels. That was big. The end of last year, we increased our revenue from when we made our second acquisition, which was August of 2020, or August of 2022. So, we had spent a lot of time just like building the foundation of the business back because it was kind of unhealthy. And so, we had just started to focus on sales, and we increased sales like 60, 70%. And so that was, I’m like very happy with that. Okay, we’re moving in the right direction. So, when you’re in it, it’s hard to see big things, like big change. It’s just like when somebody hasn’t seen you for a while, they say, oh, you lost weight. And for you, it doesn’t feel the same.
Tim Ludwig: Not only is it hard to see the change, I think it’s also easier to recognize the things that are still broken or not where you want them to be.
Chris Munn: Absolutely. So yeah, I think we’re all tortured in that sense of like, that still isn’t where I want it to be, which is kind of like golf. It’s never where you want it to be, but you make- it’s just the progress is so little and small and it’s just a little bit every day. And like in golf, if you hit 18 greens in a round, that’s amazing. Like you did a good job. And guys like average 10. But going from averaging 9 to averaging 10, it’s like a huge, huge, huge increase. But it doesn’t- you’ll never see it. And so, I’ve kind of felt like that about business. It’s just, oh, we went up, we did 30,000 more in revenue this month, 20,000 more this month, 15 more this month, and 40 more this month. The next thing you say like, oh, we added like a million and a half revenue a year. That’s pretty awesome. But every day, you don’t kind of recognize that. So, celebrating the wins is probably something I should do more because it’s very easy to look at what’s broken like you said.
Tim Ludwig: You have a lot of company in that department among the entrepreneur crowd.
Chris Munn: Yeah, we’re a tortured people.
Tim Ludwig: Speaking of entrepreneurs, so you’ve bought these businesses, but you’ve also recently started one. I don’t know if you want to say something about that. And I wonder how you compare and contrast the experiences.
Chris Munn: Yeah, so part of the story, and I think this is kind of, we’ve kind of touched on it a few times, is the loneliness of being an entrepreneur and me not knowing entrepreneurs and having people to bounce ideas off of and even buying the first one. I’m like, I don’t know if I’m wrong or. And so, since then, over and over, I said, okay, I want a peer group of people, so we we brought some people together and just paid a moderator to moderate the peer group. And the feedback was awesome. Like, it’s been awesome for me. It’s been awesome for me to talk to other entrepreneurs to get their perspective, people in different industries, people with different sized businesses, that has been very, very, very valuable to me. Especially offline where you can be real and share certain things that you otherwise couldn’t share, like oh, should I fire this person, I found out this person lied on their application, and we’re really struggling with cash conversion, like we might run out of cash, like those kind of conversations that you can have. So, it kind of turned into a business, and it’s called Tensi. It’s an entrepreneurial peer group for small and medium sized business owners who are doing like a million or more in revenue. And it’s been awesome. It’s a very different business than what I normally have, which is facility management is our largest business. But it’s very exciting to have a totally different business. Like this business has low cogs. You get paid up front, recurring revenue. So, it’s like all the cool things that people talk about in business, but then how do you keep people engaged? How do you limit churn? So very different than what I experienced on the other side with my facility management business.
Tim Ludwig: Is it strange being a member and an owner?
Chris Munn: Sometimes, yeah, for sure. Sometimes, because you know the experience and you know what the customers are getting. But at the same time, I’m not in every group. And so other groups may have different experiences, but it’s a lot easier to under- like the facility management business, when a customer says something, even though I understand technically what they’re talking about, they have an issue, their floors weren’t stripped and waxed properly, whatever, I can get that. But really having the sense of, yeah, there needs to be more engagement in the group. I know that because I’m in the group. Or the engagement was really great when we talked about X because I’m in it. So being a user and an owner has been helpful for me. And we’ll see how much I like it going forward. But it’s a much easier business than my facility management, I would just say, in terms of operations and what we’re doing there. But yeah, trying to provide value, consistent value every day. I start to see what some of the like content media companies, what they struggle with, with churn. And it’s like, how do you make sure people feel that they’re getting the value that they’re paying for all the time?
Tim Ludwig: Yeah. The last question I have for you is just given your background and upbringing and some of the experience, like Howard was such a fundamentally transformative place for you, and part of what you talked about there was the people that had come before you. So, what does legacy mean to you, or do you not give that any thought?
Chris Munn: Yeah, I definitely give that thought. And to me, I don’t have any kids. And so legacy is often thought of as what you leave behind for your kids or whatever. But for me, I think legacy is much broader than that. And especially coming from my- I only have one sibling, but as I mentioned, my dad is one of nine, my mom is one of six. So we grew up in a big family. And you start to see that you may not be intensely focused on a cousin or an uncle, but they’re always in your peripheral. And so, you have an uncle who has a landscaping business, there’s something there that you know about and you notice. Or you have an aunt who’s always really generous and like you notice that. And so, for me, legacy is important to me because I think, and it can be friends, it can be family, it can be people on Twitter, it could be whatever. But people are going to have what people think of you and what people are able to glean from your life, what things they’re able to take away and hopefully positive things that they could take away, whether it’s you are a good friend or you are really generous or you always had a positive attitude or you’re a great business person that still found time for their family. I think there can be a lot more than what we traditionally think of as legacy. And so, for me, mostly, I just want to be a good example for anyone who says that they’re interested in business, they feel inspired by it, they want to pursue it, they want to buy a business. I hope that I’m a good example and somebody they can reach out to and somebody that might look like them or have a background that they have. I think that’s been important to me. And then, just kind of the life I lead. I want to be a good person. I want to be a good friend. I want to be a good husband. So, it’s not so much what people think about me, but it’s kind of the impact that I had in their lives. And so, I hope that some people I could touch very deeply and then some people I can just be kind of a peripheral, oh, he did it.
Tim Ludwig: A role model in some way.
Chris Munn: Yeah, in some way. And so, for me, it’s just like staying on the path that I’m on. And I hope to keep sharing some of the things that make that valuable and make it worthwhile to me.
Tim Ludwig: That sounds like it’d be a great legacy.
Chris Munn: I hope so. Yeah. I’ll be happy with that.
Tim Ludwig: Thank you, Chris. Appreciate it.
Receive weekly updates in your inbox, including news about our latest episodes.